Bon Von Wheelie and Girl Trouble are absolute heroes. All these promoters out there with their "how many tickets can you sell?" schtick. It's disgusting. If you're a promoter, get off your ass and actually do a little promoting. Charging bands to play at a club that they could probably book themselves with a little work. They prey on suckers and the uninformed. T-Town's got a couple of 'em.... Go Girl Trouble!!!

I have had exactly one experience with Gorilla Productions. They booked This Shirt Is Pants at one of their shows at the 4th Ave Tavern in Olympia. We went in knowing exactly what it was, but hoping to make a contact with the venue itself by playing there.

The basic Gorilla (and Big TIme) scheme is that the bands don't have to pay directly, but their place in the night's order, and chance of future bookings, hinges on ticket sales. Being a Tacoma band playing Oly, I think we sold maybe 12 tickets. Which apparently put us high on the list that night.

Turns out that Gorilla doesn't provide any other money to cover costs. Because of the low ticket sales, their rep didn't have enough money to pay rent at the venue that night. We got lucky that we had yet to give him our ticket money... he ducked out the back door when no-one was looking at walked off with a couple bands' cash and no show, since he didn't pay.

In the end it worked out well for us... the guy at the 4th Ave (who readily informed us that this was not the first time he'd seen Gorilla pull this act, but that it was the last time he'd ever book them) took down contact information for the bands that had brought down at least a few people, and we ended up playing a real show, with a real paycheck (a cut of the bar), a few weeks later. But that was just luck of the venue. Gorilla had their rep trained to cut and run at any chance of a loss, and to steal directly from the bands if convenient.

hmmm. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation

I think its funny when bands say " Get off your ass and promote" to promoters.. Maybe Pre sell started because bands got lazy? You think a couple myspace posts and face book updates is a good way for bands to promote? Because thats all there doing now... How many times have you seen a band out flyering? If you think promoters are the only ones have bands out pre selling think again.. VENUES that you all love and adore also have bands selling tix, But you dont want to talk about them or you wouldnt be able to play there .. Usually bands try to book themselfs first and get no response so they respond to promoters ads, you only find unpopular bands bucking the system that is now in place.. "they stole from me" how ? did you get a contract? big fish little fish... your all little fish.. I hope Girl Trouble gets what they deserve.. They will now know the true meaning of "pay to play" . Hate all you want girl trouble supporters and friends.. this isnt going to change for a long time.. If you dont conform then all the new hungry bands will...

Truth:

Girl Trouble know the score. They're hardly "unpopular"--They've been playing together for over 24 years, have a dedicated fan base, and toured internationally. The list of bands they've played with would blow your mind. They promote for themselves, and advocate that others do as well. In fact, one of the recurring themes is that it takes time to build a fan base--and not to be taken in by the too-good-to-be-true promises from the pay-to-play promoters.

I hear alot of words like "been" or "have". People who become advocates usually have motives . They have a local draw, good for them, so do alot of bands. Selling tickets is the only way to get bands off there asses and promote , this isnt the 70's or 80's. If bands get screwed then learn a lesson about that venue or promoter and move on. Making websites and slandering people isnt going to do anything but get you pulled into court or not booked... I hope all the bands out there learn from "girl troubles" misfortune..

Guy -

It's not slander or libel if it's the truth.

I don't think bands would take so kindly to being called "lazy" and anybody that is involved in the music biz would know this. If Guy / Truth is so behind and supportive of pay to play, then why does he / she hide behind a moniker? Just a curious observance.

I'm convinced that Truth Guy can be persuaded to see our point of view if we could only argue harder!

--Rev.

I don't "love and adore" venues that make local bands sell tickets. The staff tend to be obnoxious, and I don't usually like their booking choices anyway. I go to see live music at least twice a month, at clubs that pay the bands out of the door money. If a band has what it takes to reach an audience outside of their buddies, the club fills up without any need for bands to sell tickets and hand most of the proceeds to a gorilla.

in all fairness, I should state that I have some difficulty being 100% impartial, due to the fact that GT is not only our favorite local band, but also longtime close friends of ours ,for a couple decades. Also, I'm not exactly a legal genius. Having said that, as an artist and writer I have picked up on a few things about freedom of speech. I'm with Rummy- it's not slander if it's truth. Plus, the main issue seems kind of simple to me in the first place. If you have an opinion, you should be allowed to express it. If GT's opinion pisses them off, maybe Gorilla could start by simply stating their side of the argument before taking legal action. Post a rebuttal on their own web site, pointing out which facts are incorrect- but then, I guess they'd have to prove they WERE incorrect, that could have slowed it down a little for Gorilla. They could even have settled their beef w/GT with a conversation. Perhaps Gorilla discovered that, when/if they tried to put their side in writing like adults and professionals with dignity and self-respect, they ran into trouble defending the way they '"do business'' in their own words.

Independent artists get s--t on and ridiculously underpaid enough in the first place without being dragged into court over expressing their opinion... and then, when bullied, not backing down. Gorilla didn't have a great reputation in the first place (and GT are not the only ones who've spoken out against them, they just happened to be passionate enough about the issue that they put up a website that got enough attention) and Gorilla's legal action is not going to have a beneficial effect on their public image. If they want to change their public perception for misleading bands, only being in the business for the money rather than any passion or devotion of music, and taking advantage of the inexperience and trust of young or first-time musicians, this lawsuit isn't the best PR move. Glad Bon posted the actual hard copy, as when you read the clumsy, clanky wording in Gorilla's legal document, including Gorilla not bothering to take 15 minutes to learn band member's legal names, in what is supposed to look like a professional, legal document. Speaking of having a good name, didn't they change their name to Gorilla about the same time the backlash started?

Finally, I'm pretty sure this idea has already occurred to GT already, but have you contacted the ACLU? It sure couldn't hurt.

If you were to Google search the name of any business, chances are extremely high you would find a critical website of that business, stating FACTS as to why you should not use its services. Are all the owners of these websites being sued? I doubt it, because they are unlikely making the sort of impact as Never Pay to Play.

As someone else mentioned, the fine people of Gorilla have filed this "lawsuit" as a scare tactic. They should learn that sophisticated people are not intimidated by unfounded legal action. In my lines of work, my coworkers and I have at one point or another been threatened by "I'm going to get a lawyer!" - all cases in which we tell these people do what they feel they need to do. We'd rather be dealing with lawyers than the morons who scream lawsuit, anyway.

I have promoted thousands of artists (new and national) over the years. Have run many successful tours nationwide of signed, Grammy winning artists.

I have always been an absolute NO to pay to play... New band i consult on how to promote themselves in the early stages to increase their market value. I do teach bands that we are in a business where nobody has to give a fuck about you, no matter who you are. Live promotion is a roll of the dice.

If you are a new band with no draw, I will do my best to splash your name around, and try to make a show that will have some draw overall. But I am concerned about a million people seeing the fact you are playing thru poster, media listings, etc. as oppossed to the 84 people who might show up initially. I have had bands signed to record deals straight off the stage on Monday nights. Sometimes it isn't how many people go, but who goes...

anyway, that is really bold of some asshole think they are so big production company out of Cleveland to challenge this fact. Cleveland rocks? Yeah, I go to the strip joint next to Peabody's during sound check... Anyway, Seattle will blaze your ass... you guys have messed with the wrong town.

Power to Girl Trouble...